I definitely agree with what Amy A and Nicki have said.

I think it is important to respect the mother's decisions, but if that mother thinks that a natural birth is a birth in which the baby comes vaginally and doesn't care about all the other interventions then maybe this isn't the right group to support her. Does that make the mother wrong? I'm not saying it does, but if she gets offended here...well there are other groups out there. This group can't be all things for all women. We are not all the same. I think acting like we can be is about the same as what the hospital does to women. The hospital uses a cookie cutter approach to birth and acts as though all women are the same. If we try to put all women into the same mold and make this group "right for everyone" then we are really no better than the hospital.

I feel that the natural birth community should be a place where women can go to get the facts. I originally came here because I was disappointed in my first birth. I didn't even really understand why, but knew it should be different. With my first child I had no idea that ultrasounds can be harmful. I didn't know that the diabetes testing is so ridiculously inaccurate. Even with these proofs we still use them as a basis for care. YES, I understand that some women do benefit from ultrasounds. Some women benefit from C-sections, but that doesn't mean they should be a standard of care.

My point is just this...I WANTED and NEEDED the natural birth community to tell me the truth. I didn't always want to hear it...I framed by first u/s picture of Aiden. However, the information I got from my more "radical" friends and this group at least planted the seed so I could find the truth. Even being a part of this group I didn't have a homebirth with my second child. I was jealous of my friends that did, but not so much that I did it myself. I somehow thought that with my new knowledge I could have a "perfect" hospital birth. I think for the most part I did have a great hospital birth, but it was still a hospital birth. There were still things that I wish didn't happen and I still cannot believe that I actually asked permission to get up after birthing my son, but it was a hospital and that is that.

Anyway, I agree with you JB we are not going to reach everyone here. Some people come here for a variety of reasons and may not even be receptive to the message. We cannot make them hear if they are not willing to listen, but we can at least keep the message clear. We should not be afraid of offending someone and therefore not provide the information that others need to hear. There are so many women that do not even know they have a choice. Maybe they won't make the decision for their first baby because it is hard to get past the fear, but we can at least provide them with accurate information.

I also thing it is impractical to try not to offend some women. We've all made decisions we felt were best at the time. I've made several I am not proud of, but I am at least willing to use them as a learning tool and not use them to perpetuate insanity. This is a natural birth group, but the group cannot end exactly at the point the baby takes its first breath. There are several other issues that this leads into...vaxing, circ, cosleeping... This should be a place where we can have real discussions about these things. I want facts on both sides. I never thought about cosleeping and had a fully decorated nursery with my first baby. Thank you to the women that opened my eyes to this side of parenting. I'm very happy that we never used the nursery we put so much time and effort into. My husband and I were going to circ until we heard the facts. I do not want to be a part of the status quo. I want to make real decisions for my family. I am okay with the consequences because I didn't make the decisions blindly.

I truly believe that the women that come here are smart. They are willing to go at least a small step further to educate themselves. I feel we are doing them an injustice if we try to mainstream the message. They can find that information anywhere. Thank you to all the women that were not afraid to "hurt my feelings" and have taught me so much. I'm very grateful for the role this group has played in my life. I hope that it continues to do so for more women in the future.

I just do not understand where we have "mainstreamed the message" can somebody please tell me where we have started telling women lies or have begun to perpetuate the insanity??!!?? I am getting rather frustrated because I feel like we are agreeing...but for some reason on opposing sides. I am so confused! No one is saying this group is for every pregnant woman. I don't think the women who come here are of the mindset that natural birth equates to vaginal birth only. We are for any woman who is looking to birth naturally, meaning no pain meds, no interventions. No one here is posting information about the safety of the epidural, or how beneficial all the wonderful tech is. We are preaching the same message we always have...the only difference is the people who used to post more radical things have decided, of their own accord, to become inactive. I am still here and please find me an example of where my message has become watered down or mainstream. I do not push people further than they are willing to go, I do not tell women what they should or should not be doing, I speak from my own experience and offer my opinions.

If you want to help women achieve the birth they desire.... start listening to them! When they tell you they feel unwelcome and disrespected, try to understand why instead of dismissing it. I know we do not intend to offend people or come off as arrogant but when that is what is occurring and women are leaving and not getting the information that we so desperately want them to, shouldn't we stop to evaluate our delivery. Why does it not make sense to be approachable, why wouldn't you want these women to feel welcome and respected. No one is saying you have to change your message, but maybe just tailor it include that individual's needs.

I just don't understand how and why I am on the other side of this argument. Why do you think we are saying different things here?

Hear, hear, Amy. I am just as LOST as you are....

I think messages can be misunderstood, and maybe that is what is going on here. For now, LNB will just keep on keepin' on, b/c seriously y'all, its what we've been doing the whole time. The only time our message changed was in the VERY beginning when it was decided to change it from a homebirth group to a natural birth gorup. Other than that, I think we've done a great job of maintaining that message. I am sorry you think otherwise.

Smiles and love,
Jb

If you are willing to ask the question you should be willing to listen to all of the responses. If you only want to hear the voices that echo your own then don't pose the question to 282 members. You are bound to get a wide variety of opinions.

I don't think any one is asking for apologies or has said anyone is not doing a great job. Every group has to decide on a direction. That path does not have to be right for everyone.

But we DO! We get MANY responses on this board. When did we ever not? Did you not see the variety of topics we talked about at the labor support meetup? Did we not OPENLY display our love for homebirth at the Midwifery App. Day Picnic? I am beginning to think there are some behind the scenes personal squabbles here....

We write about birth in any setting; home, hospital, unassisted. Yes, some have opinions on these..... I think this thread has PROVED that we are opinionated and and that we are willing to calmly listen to each other. At least that is my impression :) I know I openly appreciate every woman's journey on this board.

Hugs, I think I'm signing off on this thread for a bit...
Jennybean

the only difference is the people who used to post more radical things have decided, of their own accord, to become inactive.

I see the same people here in this discussion who have always posted radical things. I think you are letting the absence of a couple of people who have been very active in the past at meetups really get under your skin. Let it go. They probably have their own reasons for leaving.

I am glad that many feel more comfortable, but honestly I have NEVER heard anyone on here judge people who were going to be birthing in a hospital, even at the big W. In fact, they have rallied around people who had happy births at hospital and asking them advice.

Bottom line: Progress is being made, and we are talking to each other, which means more progress can be made. Bravo!

First off I do want to apologize for the aggression that has probably been present in my post on this thread. I hate to use this as an excuse but it is that time of the month and I have been in a bit of an aggressive state. I do appreciate the dialoge, I am responding to the opposition because I am hoping to get some resolve. I am asking that those who claim we are too mainstream and have lost sight of our message give examples of this and offer a solution as to how their needs can be met, or how we can get back on track in their opinion. The whole goal of this group is too reach out to women, so having more mainstream women on board seems on track with that goal. I don't feel our message has been dumbed down, or been lost sight of, that is why I have taken offense to these claims and have defended myself, as the organizer and a member of this group. I don't feel like the goal of this group has ever been to get all women who come here to think alike. the idea is to have an open and safe place to put information and personal experience out there so that women can come and take what the need, learn what they will, and move on to make decisions that are in line with who they are and where they want to be. Not everyone who comes here will have a homebirth, cloth diaper, breastfeed through toddlerhood, stay home with their babies, forego vax or circ. some women may only come and learn the risk of induction and can choose to avoid that and still go onto have an epidural, another may learn the risk of the epidural and avoid that but still go onto deliver in a hospital, some may learn the risk of birthing in a hospital and choose to stay home, some may learn to fully trust birth and choose to stay home unassisted. The journey and outcome are personal and unique to the individual. This is a place for women to come and get whatever they want and give back whatever they can.

I'll start by saying I have not read all of the responses and barely skimmed through them, so I'm not sure what everyone else's opinions are. And hopefully I'm actually answering the question with my opinion.

But, what I believe is best asked first with a a question...

Is the goal of the group to support those in the community who are like each other?

Or

Is the goal of the group to reach out the those who many not otherwise know about home birth, understand the options and safety of home birth, know the benefits of a natural labor and delivery, hear about their options in the community and make their own decisions.

I think if the goal of the group is the first, then maybe being more "main stream" at times is not appropriate, because homebirth, natural birth, and so on is not main stream. So, if the goal is to support, relate and talk with those that already have the home birth desires, then there is no reason to tailor things to anyone else.

But if your goal is to reach out and educate the community on options, then having a little main stream to your actions is appropriate.

I'll use myself as an example. My first birth was TOTALLY main stream. I would have never even lurked on the board like this because I didn't think it was for me. I was induced, willingly but stupidly, and had a c-section, which did not make me happy, but that was life. After I was disappointed in that birth, I did lurk on here, but at the time (it was about 3 years ago), I felt the views were too extreme and my desire for a hospital VBAC would not have been well perceived because it was still a hospital birth. After my successful VBAC, I wanted more and I actually joined here, feeling very welcomed because my desire was natural birth. I actually remember stating the reason I felt I couldn't home birth and someone clearly stated that they understood my feelings, even though they home birthed. And did not immediately jump at me that I should anyway! Their understanding for my feelings made me feel VERY VERY welcome and I really appreciated it. Now that I've been here a while, if someone encouraged me, it would be different. Because it wouldn't be a stranger forcing their views on me at our first meeting. Hopefully that makes sense. Basically, being new, I wanted to feel validated and understood...and I did feel that way! Which was great!

Anyway, I feel like a group like this was suitable for me and helpful for me because it did not exclude me because I desired a natural birth in a hospital. This group has provided a lot of education for me that if it were exclusive to home birth, I would not have ever visited. And who knows, maybe I will eventually feel comfortable enough to have my next one at home.

Taking a general example too..say there was a woman who was interested in natural birth, but not home birth. But she visited here, feeling accepted because of her desire to naturally deliver. And through education and hearing your stories, she chose a home birth instead. Through education and support, she could change her mind. But, would she have ever visited in the first place if it was exclusive to home birth? Probably not...it would be the support and stories through her visits here that gave her confidence and knowledge!

Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm even answering this appropriately..but, my view on it is that accepting women with a slightly more mainstream view will allow more of the community to be reached, educated, and potentially "converted"! And how great is that!?!!??! :) :)