I am working on setting up a meeting (soon, maybe in late Aug, early Sept) to discuss HBAC options. I hope to have some docs and midwives for Q & A forum, and then maybe a private discussion afterwards. this subject has been coming up a lot lately. I don't feel homebirth should not be an option if you are attempting VBAC, however it is a lot trickier. What is most discouraging is the silence that surrounds it, you can't openly talk back up docs or options so it makes it seem even harder to consider. I assume most midwives and back up doctors take it case by case, looking at your risk factors, your level of commitment, and your distance to a hospital.

Those who would be interested in attending a VBAC/HBAC discussion, please email me some quetions you would like answered (or you can post them here).

I would GLADLY host this meeting.

Lets do a poll of the 280 members on here. Was your birth plan honored COMPLETELY in the hospital? Did you feel respected as the decision maker regarding your families care in the hospital? Where there variations of labor or birth/complications that hospital HCOS felt required intervention? Were you attended to after your birth in the hospital?

Compare above questions between the hospital birthers and the homebirthers


I LIKE THIS IDEA!!!! LET'S DO IT.



And you know, we can't please everyone. If we lose peeps, we lose peeps. We just gained two members in one day.... We offer a positive place to discuss their options. Yes, we GENTLY nudge homebirth. You're right, maybe we should nudge a little harder. But I still won't use negativity aka pressure to do it, but that is me. If you want to, I'm all for it! We need people like you to tell it like it is! Though I'm sure if you ask any of the HB midwives they'll tell you how a woman's mind can get to her during labor if she isn't fully on board with HB'ing. Those people are called TRANSFERS.


Jennybean

Man, some how I missed your post Nicki! I didn't mean to gloss over it and reply to another post, I must have been replying at the same time as you. anyway just read through and first off thank you once again for your input. I always enjoy your post, you come from a place that offers a very fresh perspective, as a childbirth educator who works one on one with mothers, as a mother yourself who has grown through your own experience in giving birth, and as a long time LNB member.

I do understand where you are coming from with your complaint that the topics might become boring to someone who considers themselves more radical. I think that is what I meant earlier about when it becomes about what you need vs what you are willing to offer other women. What I had always hoped to see from this group was the merging of two extremes, to have mainstream women come to talk about what is pertinent in their lives and be inspired by more radical thinkers who are freely discussing their homebirths. The point of keeping the boards public was to allow our more radical ways of thinking to influence a broad audience.

I also agree with how frustrating it is to follow a woman through pregnancy, supporting her decisions and encouraging her to have the birth she desires only to hear her story after the birth and have it not turn out the way she hoped. It is even more frustrating when you know ahead of time that she is walking into that situation and you try to tell her, you try to get her to understand but she is just not there yet. So what are we to do? Ultimately it is that woman's decision and the outcome is hers to deal with. There is only so much any of us can do to prepare her, of course we should tell her the truth about the obstacles she faces but I feel like we must also empower her by supporting the decisions she is making. IMO, it doesn't help to tell her that the decision she has made and is set on will cause her to fail. I don't want her to go into the birth already feeling defeated, assuming she cannot get through it. I don't want to arm her for battle and have her walk into the birth ready for and looking for a fight. I want her to be at peace with her own decisions. I cannot tell her what to do, I can only try to expand her horizons and answer her questions, share my own experience and make available to her all the options she has. What she decides to do and what happens because of those decisions is not my responsibility. And yes, it sucks sometimes that is the case. I want so badly sometimes to yell and shake a mom, but really what good is that gonna do? I dont' like when well meaning people offer me advice about my decision to birth at home, they truly believe I am at risk, that the hospital is safer for me, but it is my decision to make. A women that has choosen to birth in a hospital that knows homebirth is an option for her (and most women who come here know this) deserves the same respect. I am well intentioned in my efforts to push homebirth on her, I belive it is the safest option for her, but she does not. fearmongering can go both ways. I don't think it is right to scare her out of her hospital birth just as it is wrong to scare someone out of homebirth.

Some women need to learn and come around to radical ideas by trial and era. I was one of these very mainstream thinkers once. I was only looking to have a natural birth because I was more scared of the needles and pain meds than of the actual pain I might endure. I did consider homebirth, didn't know too much about it, only what I had read in the books I was using to prepare. I was not there yet, I don't think I would have made a different decision had I known a few more stats. I personally had no idea what to expect in labor, my husband did not either, and my family was unsupportive enough over a natural hospital birth. It is not easy as a first time mother to completely buck the system, go against everything you know, and everything your family knows. Of course my husband respects me as the mother, but I also respect him as the father. If he had not been in full support of the homebirth for our second child I cannot say I would have just forced him to be onboard. My point is there is a lot for a mother to take on when choosing a homebirth for her first baby, and if she is not truly convicted in that decision and does not have adequate support there is a chance that even her homebirth will be riddled with obstacles. I don't think it is just because mothers are uneducated and don't know better that they make the decision to birth in a hospital.

So where does that leave us that know better. I have come across this same issue with parenting, I can tell my daughter over and over again that the pan is hot and she shouldn't touch it, but it isn't until I turn my back and she touches it that she learns and understands that it is hot. I hate this analogy, I don't want to say that some women need to have a bad birth experience to want a better one, but for some that is just the way it seems to be. I wish it were as simple as getting in their face and telling them the truth over and over again and that would make them see it for what it is beforehand, but all that does is turn them off to the whole idea. So what is the solution, what can we do? IMO, we can do what we are doing, keep trying to get the information out, keep telling our stories, keep putting the idea in their heads. Most importantly we can get to those who are not even pregnant yet, before they have been warped. Robbi Davis Floyd put it best in her talk at the PNB conference last march. It is the paradigm of the practitioner that effects the birth experience. IMO we need HCPs and Nurses who work in the hospital setting to make a change in how they care for women, even the ones who are not asking for it. We need the medical side to start hearing and seeing what we see. I am just a mother, with a bunch of books, a few radical thinking friends, and the internet. If I can get it why can't they? Well for one because we are not the norm, we are viewed as a joke in some respect, and we are the opposition. So getting "them" to view us as on to something would certainly help. The more mothers that ask for waterbirth, refuse a helploc, eat and drink freely during labor, birth in "odd" positions like standing and squatting, and so on.. the more the mindset of the those working with these mothers will change. We also have to give credit by celebrating the small steps, this helps to encourage bigger ones. When a practice makes a step in the right direction and still is left feeling it wasn't good enough, they lose their interest in even trying.

Okay my husband is fussing, and my dog is taking his last breaths so I really need to get off the computer. I want to reread your post though and might comment some more. there was a lot there to think about. You raise some very good points, and I really do appreciate your honesty, I understand your frustration. My hope for this group is that we continue to offer both sides of the extreme, that we can remain diverse. We don't all have to agree, but we should all be working together to make an impact on this system.

I love the poll idea. I am going to get that up as a poll. I think those are good questions that every mother should ask herself and really reflect on.

Well put, Nicki. I could not agree more.

I also agree with how frustrating it is to follow a woman through pregnancy, supporting her decisions and encouraging her to have the birth she desires only to hear her story after the birth and have it not turn out the way she hoped. It is even more frustrating when you know ahead of time that she is walking into that situation and you try to tell her, you try to get her to understand but she is just not there yet. So what are we to do? Ultimately it is that woman's decision and the outcome is hers to deal with. There is only so much any of us can do to prepare her, of course we should tell her the truth about the obstacles she faces but I feel like we must also empower her by supporting the decisions she is making.

It is so depressing to me that this happens to women. I'd like to say that a woman shouldn't have to get hurt in a hospital (perhaps come out physically okay with a healthy baby but spiritually feeling literally cut to shreds) and then go to homebirth for her second child because she was so wounded the first time around. Why can't women birth in a way that the medical experts have her back but leave her alone, otherwise. That is really all that anyone on this board has ever wanted from hospitals. Leave us alone until there is a true emergency, not until you feel like you need to manage us in case an emergency arises. It is such a male-oriented, Ford Motors style of care. The entire culture is so enmeshed in it that even the most progressive healthcare agencies still buy into it, with only surface modifications, like making the floors wood instead of linoleum. How long did it take for them in invent an underwater monitoring machine?! And here we are putting folks on the moon.

Nicki! I hope you write all of that into an essay and that it gets published somewhere.

I get what you are saying, I have said it once myself... why can't women have the best birth the first time without even trying? That is where getting to the practitioners is helping. It helps to put a face on the NB community and it's message that the medical side respects and will listen to. There seems to be a lot negative backlash within the NB community however as soon as someone manages to do that. You get called a sell out, a kiss butt, and such. People start telling everybody you have contracts with the hospitals, that your turning into a business, that you are no longer concerned with the mothers rights but only with being PC. Being PC is helpful in getting the mothers' needs met. Offending people is just not helping, it creates more distance between the two sides. We need there to be a merging between the medical model and the homebirth standard. You will never get home like care in a hospital, true, but for the women who must go there shouldn't we be working towards making it as motherbaby friendly as possible?

Yes it takes too long for a practice to get rid of routine episiotomy practices, or for someone to develop underwater monitoring and then someone else to finally utilize it..but can't we still be happy when that happens! Why does NB advocating always seem synonymous with complaining about how bad everything is ... even when something good does happen we have to wrap a big negative bow around it. I say 'we' cause I have been so guilty of doing this. I am just tired and drained by all the negatives. I can't function in that world any longer. I realized how badly it was affecting my whole life; my relationship with my husband, my kids, myself. I just want to focus on what is going right and what we can actually do to help things along.

I can share my experience, show up here to offer my opinions, organize meetings that help to bring like minded women together and events that help to educate women. that is all I can do, I can not save every woman single handed from ever having a bad birth experience. I can do my best to point women in the right direction. I have to stop making it about me, and what I want for women to experience. It is hard sometimes, I really get down when I hear of a bad birth, and I am not even there with the mom (I can't imagine how a doula feels). But getting more aggressive, with the mothers or with the doctors/midwives/nurses is not the answer IMO. People are not receptive to that kind of behavior. Women like to feel respected and supported. You keep feeding them information in a non-confrontational way, keep offering an ear to listen (even if what they are saying makes your teeth grind), and you keep offering them support. At some point most women do make good decisions and they do it on their own with your support, not because you the advocate/doula/HCP/friend convinced them to do it. Isn't that what is important? For a woman to walk away from the whole experience empowered, ready to take on motherhood with a sense of pride, strength, and determination?

I'll say it again, you can not and should not force anything on a women. It is her body, her birth, you are no better than the HCP when you start pushing your beliefs and use scare tactics to get her to make better decisions. Yes the truth is that a natural hospital birth is sometimes difficult to achieve, but who is saying that homebirth is easier? I don't just mean the physical pain of the birth. It is a very personal and sometimes difficult decision to choose a homebirth. You have to pay out of pocket, you are up against a lot of well meaning bad advice from those you love, you are dealing with your own fears and years of brainwashing that birth is medical and an emergency is awaiting around the corner, for a first time mother you are dealing with so many unknowns it can be very hard to surrender to the whole process. I could not calm down and give way to the birth process of my first birth until after I was finally admitted to the hospital. I finally felt like I could relax, being at home so long was driving me nuts. I finally felt safe, and labor finally progressed. With my homebirth I think I really did have a hard time believing everything was okay, I knew it was but I have bad anxiety issues and it was hard to just let go. Thankfully my midwife was here the whole time and I was able to relax slightly knowing if there was something wrong she would do something about it. I trust birth, I know my body is capable but I still couldn't help feeling out of sorts. Prob just too many years of thinking babies are born in hospital with machines and docs, so I might just have felt like something was out of sorts.. Next birth, I feel more confident, I doubt I will call the midwife or birth team over that early, I would like to think I will be much more relaxed because babies being born at home is much more normal for me now. My very long winded point is that it is a unique and personal experience for each woman, you can not tell a women where she is better off cause you simply cannot know that for her. She needs to make that decision. And once she has decided she wants to stay in the hospital, you can only help give her information to make good decisions about which hospital, which provider, encourage her to take classes, hire a doula, get her family to be supportive, and empower her by supporting her. Don't make her feel stupid because she is not yet where you are, don't discount her fears, or her expectations because they are silly to you, and don't act like you have all the answers to her problems.

Nicki, Well said. I agree with all of it. The points you make are one of the reasons I am not currently teaching. Its hard to watch new mothers end up with unsatisfactory births and still toe the line of professional.

My very long winded point is that it is a unique and personal experience for each woman, you can not tell a women where she is better off cause you simply cannot know that for her. She needs to make that decision. And once she has decided she wants to stay in the hospital, you can only help give her information to make good decisions about which hospital, which provider, encourage her to take classes, hire a doula, get her family to be supportive, and empower her by supporting her. Don't make her feel stupid because she is not yet where you are, don't discount her fears, or her expectations because they are silly to you, and don't act like you have all the answers to her problems.

Thank you Amy. This is exactly why I am comfortable in this group now. Because I now feel like my decision to have a natural VBAC in a hospital is supported and not looked down upon (by most of the women on here). Pushing one's own agenda and ideals upon a mother is no different than a HCP pushing an intervention upon a laboring woman.

But y'all.....having a group like this IS like teaching.

I can't tell you how many times I've taught a variety of classes and subjects to many different ages. I've taught 2 year olds to 30 year olds in areas of swimming, dance, but most of all science. Its impossible to get to everyone (which is why people homeschool of course) with your message or lesson. They have to go home and do their own homework on their own initiative. BUT.... you have the ONE person every now and then who gets it and makes a change, and who wouldn't have done it if it weren't for someone like the teacher broaching the subject.

Its that ONE "student" that makes a difference. And to me, its all worth the effort to teach, its all worth it even through the disappointments....because if I weren't there...that ONE person wouldn't have had "gotten it".

Sorry Marie, that isn't a stab at you, okay? I just wanted to make a point that we are here as a resource for women and to "preach the word"....just that not everyone gets the message we are sending. It will happen with this group, a class, or any other group for that matter.

Jb