I've been wanting to comment since Myriah's article.. but have stopped and started MANY times!

(again it was a good article .. should go under the files section and I'm glad they are meeting with or have met with you!)

Not to stir the pot further or be the recipient of attacks.. BUT....

First of all I am very saddened about "former members" leaving the board. I do know Katie personally and considered leaving myself, but chose to stay as a possible way to bring the "both sides" to a better understanding of the others viewpoints.

As I see it, (IMHO) many people DO come to this site and get the information they are seeking.. and that is truly wonderful! When I first found this website and started reading the forums, you can understand how people are so passionate about birth.

To understand where I am coming from (for those of you that don't know me) -

I'm an L&D nurse that worked full time at BRG, I am going to school through Frontier School of Midwifery to become a CNM. I'm now PRN at BRG and Women's and Children's in Lafayette.

I grew up in California and I guess that is where I adopted much of my philosophy.

EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions, birth methods and feelings, I may not agree with you, you may not agree with me.. and thats OK! BUT please as has been posted think about what you are saying and how it may come across to someone else before hitting send!

If you want to give birth in a mud pit great - you should go for it... if you want to give birth at home and you have the resources and information to do that.. good for you... sounds like you are ready..

Would I do either of the above?? NO... because the first option is way to dirty for me... and the second option is not in my comfort zone.. now before anyone attacks me.... I DIDN'T SAY home birthing is bad, as a matter of fact Sherri Daigle and I have had in depth discussions about this on more than one occasion. I was trying to understand her point of view.. which I do.. BUT .... FOR ME it isn't something I would be comfortable with.. Sherri Daigle was QUICK to say.. then home birth wouldn't be for you if you have any doubts about it! I thought that was great, she wasn't trying to tell me that my way of birth was bad or evil.. just hey if you couldn't be 100% on board with the idea home birth isn't for you.

I was a very good girl scout.. as in always be prepared... ask anyone who has seen my back pack that I drag (literally) to work I have what I might need for any emergency.. and most homes don't have an available c/s room!

I would be open to a birthing center since it would be closer to the hospital and therefore not as likely to get stuck in br traffic in an emergency! But honestly.. this isn't going to happen for me.. birthing is over...

It is possible to have an unmedicated birth at a hospital and even happens often for those that have the desire (gasp!) no really.. it's true!
Then we get into the "natural" discussion... while I respect your right and wishes for a home birth.. don't knock myself, my friends or ANYONE else for NOT choosing to deliver at home. This is often held up as the pinnacle of "natural birth" and therefore people have stated they felt as though their ideas / opinions weren't as important. It's great that many are passionate about this... some people would NEVER consider this idea and shouldn't be made to feel that they are less of a woman for not birthing at home or even considering it.

I was induced at 39 weeks and had an unmedicated birth (other than pitocin - oh yeah.. and local for a few stitches!) I was an informed consumer in SAN FRANCISCO but we were moving to Louisiana and the doctor wanted to make sure I had at least two weeks recovery etc before driving here. Knowing what I know now.. would I have done anything different?? you bet... I would have waited to have my son in his own time.. and told his father (my now ex-husband) to drive by himself.. we'll catch up with you later!

I took care of a patient where Sherri Daigle came to the hospital and was the doula for the patient, it was a great labor and a beautiful birth.

The patients wishes were respected, and everyone enjoyed a peaceful birth.

Obviously this depends greatly on your provider, your nurse and your personal situation.

If someone (mother, father, doula) comes in and appears to be confrontational as in... I'm or we're not __________.. chances are... you will not have the outcome you are wishing for...

If someone comes in and states.. here is my birthplan.. my cnm/md is on board with it.. this is what we are asking of you as the staff... we would prefer not to ___________ (this doesn't mean you must can't say no later! you just appear to be more willing to work with the staff)

Yes I know you are the consumer... and without you there is not hospital / job etc... but that isn't the point here..

I know I am rambling at this point, keep thinking about the paper I am suppose to be writing!.. so go for it.. hit me with your best shot ... what do you think??

I've been wanting to comment since Myriah's article.. but have stopped and started MANY times!

(again it was a good article .. should go under the files section and I'm glad they are meeting with or have met with you!)

Not to stir the pot further or be the recipient of attacks.. BUT....

First of all I am very saddened about "former members" leaving the board. I do know Katie personally and considered leaving myself, but chose to stay as a possible way to bring the "both sides" to a better understanding of the others viewpoints.

As I see it, (IMHO) many people DO come to this site and get the information they are seeking.. and that is truly wonderful! When I first found this website and started reading the forums, you can understand how people are so passionate about birth.


EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions, birth methods and feelings, I may not agree with you, you may not agree with me.. and thats OK! BUT please as has been posted think about what you are saying and how it may come across to someone else before hitting send!

I feel the same way. Thanks, Sandy!

Hey Sandy, its definitely about your comfort zone. I've always said that too. I had a birth center birth with my first and SWORE my next one would be at home. Like Myriah said, its all about where you are in life that sort of decides how/where your next baby will be born. It was a variety of reasons, but after boiling it all down we decided to go to a birth center again. I would love to say the next one would be at home, but honestly, I don't say it b/c I just don't know where I will be at that point. I'll leave it up to that moment!


And I have to ask why it is such a big deal to be at least a *little* confrontational in the hospital (as a patient, not a doula)? If it were for any other ailment, people wouldn't think anything of it. For example, someone who is in the hospital choosing their method of care for cancer or other illness. The HCP should do as their patient (client, really) wishes, right? Everyone (us, the consumer) already knows you have to roll with the punches, as do you (the staff). Can't you just mention that? Say, for ex., We want to stick to your birthplan; if a situation arises where we think you may need to take another course, we'll give the info and you can decide from there. Done. I guess its harder when you are explaining this to a woman in labor though...

Here is my problem (not with you btw! smiles), and its more a philisophical one. Birth is SUCH a hairy topic b/c it obviously involves two lives. One who can talk to you about they want (the mother), and the life who can't talk to you (the baby). I feel that in our culture, when we enter the hospital, the baby is NO LONGER OURS. I feel like its become a ward of the state and that I have to get permission from other people to take a certain course of action with our lives or even just to take the baby home. What I find so hard to understand is this: why can't the hospital understand that what is good for the mother is good for the baby? What may be bad for the mother may be bad for the baby? OF COURSE I understand those emergency situations. But alot of us feel taken advantage of on the basis of "emergency", and I'm sorry, but that is just unhealthy :( I am thinking of the elephant giving birth here...

And I have to ask why it is such a big deal to be at least a *little* confrontational in the hospital (as a patient, not a doula)? If it were for any other ailment, people wouldn't think anything of it. For example, someone who is in the hospital choosing their method of care for cancer or other illness. The HCP should do as their patient (client, really) wishes, right? Everyone (us, the consumer) already knows you have to roll with the punches, as do you (the staff). Can't you just mention that? Say, for ex., We want to stick to your birthplan; if a situation arises where we think you may need to take another course, we'll give the info and you can decide from there. Done. I guess its harder when you are explaining this to a woman in labor though..

While I can only speak for myself.. I try my best to do that, I feel the Ochsner CNM's do this also.. but obviously a woman in transition may not be real receptive to discussion at that time! I am involved in the exceptional birthing group that meets at red shoes. I've met lots of great people there, and have assisted them with birth plans etc. I think it is VITAL to take childbirth education classes!!! Many questions could be answered by your instructor or your doula.

People are human... when some one is just arriving and standing at registration signing in as in a paper.. they aren't giving speechs about birthing in mud... the are registering!!! thats it!!

I personally have observed the difference and seen the attitudes change on the nurses part from a "perceived confrontation". like can we walk in the halls??

...RN says to another RN "Why do they have to keep walking in the halls... can't they stay in their rooms??"... true fact! this was also basically said to the patient... aren't you tired of walking in the halls?? don't you wished you had gone home.. where you can be more comfortable?

ALOT of this involves maturity and the realization that its not about you (the nurse)... many of these newer nurses havent have children.. and havent experienced ncb.

Keep in mind... 99.9% of patients dont want students / new nurses orienting etc... BUT how can we train them to see what a great experience it CAN be if all the attitude is checked at the door...

"EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions, birth methods and feelings, I may not agree with you, you may not agree with me.. and thats OK! BUT please as has been posted think about what you are saying and how it may come across to someone else before hitting send!"

This is what bothers me so much about that whole situation. No one seems to think that Katie was being at all attacking in her post. I felt attacked!!!! I responded because of that. Prior to Katies defense of Renee and attack on us for how toxic we are as group, no one had made a personal attack on Renee....people were stating their aggeivation and personal experience. Nothing harmful was being said, the only point being made was that Renee doesn't advocate for homebirth. SO WHAT!!!! what is the big deal with this statement, it is fine if she wants to be an advocate for natural birth in a hospital...she is doing great things to see that happen and that is respectful. I don't think it is a secret that Renee does not like "us", she does not see a need to network with other doulas, or this group so I think she took offense and felt attacked due to her own seperatiron from this group. When you talk about someone personally and they are not part of the conversation it seems attacking, especially when you get someon else to come on and speak for you.

Again back to playing the victim here.....I am so tired of hearing how toxic we are by people who don't know us or what we are about. I responded to Katies post and may of came off very aggressive, I don't know, but it was only because I felt like SHE was attacking ME!!!!

On top of that post I then had five members leave citing our group was either too cliquish for them, or that they just had to stick up for thier friend and leave on principle...is that NOT CLIQUISH!!!!! I also had one "formor member" say some very hurtful and harsh things in emails to me, claiming I reduced this group to nothing but a joke and have ruined what Myriah started. These are not the kind of people that I want to work with or be freinds with. The peole within this group that have earned my respect or those that actually come to meetups, post with thier honest opinions, respect other peoples opinions, and actually try and understand the whole story before coming here to attack us.

I have nothing personal against Katie, Renee, or any other members that left. After dwelling for a couple weeks and really taking inventory of myself and what I am trying to do with this group, I am okay and have brushed off the hurtful things said to me. I have no intentions of starting a war with birthhelp...quite the opposite, I want to work with them. I plan to be at their meeting this month....I have tried to make it for a few months now but somehting always comes up. I will be there this month.

As for your choices in birth Sandy, you are exactly right...it is about YOUR comfort zone. If you do not feel completey comfortable with a homebirth, or your partner is not on board then you should look into your other options. My new moto is that homebirth is not for everyone but it should at least be considered by everyone...it should be on the list of options. And not because it is the gold standard of birth, or you aren't a real woman unless you give birth at home. I don't think this way, most of the homebirthers I know don't think this way. It is not some prize to be won. The reason I fight for homebirth to be an opiton is because of everything you cited in your other post. To have a natural birth in a hospital is not easy, and it is not garaunteed. It is hard work to have a good, intervention free, natural birht in a setting that is not designed for it, and in some cases not tolerable of it. I push homebirth because I feel for some it is the only way they will get the birth they want. If you are not comfortable with homebirth it doesn't make you less of a woman (in fact it might make you more of one to have a natural birth in a hospital), you will have to accept certain things you may not want to though. You will have to consent to the hospital and as Jenny mentioned,. you will have to ask permission to make decisions for your own body and baby.

I just wish the more medical side of birth would stop being offended by the homebirth debate. We are not saying we are better than anybody, that is not what it is about. We are saying homebirth is different, you are not garuanteed to have an organsmic, pain free birth just because you stayed home. You will be respected as a woman, you will be left alone to allow your body to what is designed to do, you will not need a birth plan, a doula, or AMA papers to have the birth you want. Many women need to give birth in the hospital, whether that be because they have a medical problem or they just need the safety net, that is okay.

"EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions, birth methods and feelings, I may not agree with you, you may not agree with me.. and thats OK! BUT please as has been posted think about what you are saying and how it may come across to someone else before hitting send!"

This is what bothers me so much about that whole situation. No one seems to think that Katie was being at all attacking in her post. I felt attacked!!!! I responded because of that. Prior to Katies defense of Renee and attack on us for how toxic we are as group, no one had made a personal attack on Renee....people were stating their aggeivation and personal experience. Nothing harmful was being said, the only point being made was that Renee doesn't advocate for homebirth. SO WHAT!!!! what is the big deal with this statement, it is fine if she wants to be an advocate for natural birth in a hospital...she is doing great things to see that happen and that is respectful. I don't think it is a secret that Renee does not like "us", she does not see a need to network with other doulas, or this group so I think she took offense and felt attacked due to her own seperatiron from this group. When you talk about someone personally and they are not part of the conversation it seems attacking, especially when you get someon else to come on and speak for you.

Again back to playing the victim here.....I am so tired of hearing how toxic we are by people who don't know us or what we are about. I responded to Katies post and may of came off very aggressive, I don't know, but it was only because I felt like SHE was attacking ME!!!!

On top of that post I then had five members leave citing our group was either too cliquish for them, or that they just had to stick up for thier friend and leave on principle...is that NOT CLIQUISH!!!!! I also had one "formor member" say some very hurtful and harsh things in emails to me, claiming I reduced this group to nothing but a joke and have ruined what Myriah started. These are not the kind of people that I want to work with or be freinds with. The peole within this group that have earned my respect or those that actually come to meetups, post with thier honest opinions, respect other peoples opinions, and actually try and understand the whole story before coming here to attack us.

I have nothing personal against Katie, Renee, or any other members that left. After dwelling for a couple weeks and really taking inventory of myself and what I am trying to do with this group, I am okay and have brushed off the hurtful things said to me.

I hate to even respond to this whole subject of what's happened. But, knowing and liking people on both "sides" of this, I'm hoping it can be resolved and healed rather than brushed off. (BTW, I hate that there are sides.)

From what I know, (and I don't pretend to know all of what's been said) the sudden growth of former members is directly related to the cruel comments made openly on Facebook against Katie. I consider Katie my friend. It doesn't make me feel very good about this group when some of it's very active members rip her apart for what she spoke about in the supposed safe place of a LLL meeting. I see a lot being written about this whole thing not being personal but, it was definitely a personal attack. I can understand why people left the group.

I have liked being a part of this group. It makes me sad that what's going on kind of feels like high school.

You are right, Amy, it is VERY difficult to have a completely intervention free birth in a hospital.

Rewind to my first birth, an uncomplicated, successful pregnancy. I am on the hospital couch, wrapped in blankets, and I say, "Wait, I just want to enjoy this." I am feeling very much at home with my body, very in touch with my birthing process. "You know, you'd be a great candidate for a home birth," my doula says. "Wow, I think. That would have been so much better. Okay."

I am feeling really, really good. Yeah, it hurts but I am doing it!! Enter the nurse, who wants to check my cervix. "Okay," I say. "You are doing so great," she says, "9 3/4 centimeters with a small lip of cervix still there." "Okay," I say, in my head, "Just a few more contractions, and here we go!" "Do you feel the urge to push?" says the nurse. "No," I answer. But that's okay, right? My doula says, "Can you try to move over the small bit of cervix?" to the nurse. "Okay," I say. I think this sounds pretty good. Ten minutes later, I am screaming, in agony, on the side of the bed, with a nurse trying to pry open my cervix, at least that's what it feels like. I am scared. I am never going to recover from this. I am in hell. I want out. I start to panic. My contractions weaken.

"I just want to rest," I say. And, in the quiet, after, she later said, much deliberation on her part, my doula says, "Maybe you should try some Pitocin." She tells me we'll be holding a baby in an hour and a half if I have Pitocin. It will likely be morning if I go without. Sounds good to me. Haul in the monitors, the Pit, get on the bed, PUSH PUSH PUSH! And I meet the most beautiful boy. I feel elated! No epidural! My doula saved me from having a C-section because she could see that I was too tired to have this baby without it. Or so my thinking was.

Now, I know so much more and sometimes fantasize about what would have happened if I had actually had a home birth. I feel like I am so blessed to get 85% the natural birth I hear about from folks like Ina Mae. And my wishes were definitely honored. So who am I to complain? Still, it nags at me sometimes. It was so wonderful. And also, so terrifying when it all changed, and I can pinpoint the moment when it happened, when the medical staff and doula thought it would be a great idea to help my body along.

I have healed from this, and know that every birth is its own story. But I am putting it out there as an example of why hospital births can so quickly undermine a woman's ability to do her thing, so to speak, and get that baby out.

Why does it matter? Because with every story like mine, women do get a little bit weaker. We forget our inherent ability to do an amazing thing...GIVE BIRTH! I am not saying everyone who has had a hospitalized, medicalized birth is weak, but I am saying that, one day, I fear, women will actually forget how to give birth. They will be so anesthetized they will not know what to do. It seems something very science fictional to me. And yet, aren't we getting closer to that?

I feel like I have rambled and spilled way too many of my guts here. I think, in essence, that is why so many of us are passionate on this board, though. We are trying to hold onto something that women need to know. I am so grateful that I have had two births in the hospital without epidurals. I am such a stronger woman and parent because of my experiences. At the same time, I will fight to keep normal birth out of hospitals so that more people can have access to that inner wisdom, the wisdom of birth, we all could use.

it does feel like highschool...but who is really at fault for this? I have a good friend involved in this as well, she is allowed to vent to other friends when she is aggrevated, not saying she was in the right but people say the wrong thing at the wrong time .. is all that transpired because of that one commnet justified? I don't think so. I think that comment should of been kept away from here. Cynthia didn't post that here, she posted it on facebook. The people that took that comment from one person's page on fb and then forwarded it around to other friends and brought the situation here to the MBs are responsible for turning this into a highschool drama. The comment that was made was not tearing her apart, it was not a nice thing to say but it was simply someone else's opinion and aggrevation being voiced. The person responsible for the comment sent Katie an email and that is where that should of been left, between the two of them.

Let me assure you Claire, that no one here is asking that you take sides. I want you to remain a part of our group as well as others. I do not expect you to defend me or feel the need to defend anyone else. I can speak for myself. There are not sides here, we really are not that cliquish...maybe other people are being that way (I don't know) but I can say of myself that I do not make decisions based on other peoples conflict. I either like or dislike you based on my own personal experience with you.

It is disappointing that anyone would talk about what was said at a LLL meeting. But why judge a whole group based on that? There were so many of us who were not at that LLL meeting, nor did we participate in the comments afterward.

I really don't like being a doula in BR. I don't like it at all.

I've had a precious friendship challenged because of my loyalty to that woman OVER my loyalty to her HCP. I've been told that my client, who already hired me, doesn't need a doula because she's in a safe environment. Safe, who says? The HCP? What about the mother? It's really at the end of the day, all about the mother.

I've been blamed for things that my client has put in her birth plan..... THAT WERE NOT MY IDEA. Well researched decisions straight out of published research and Marsden Wagner's book. Immediately I'm perceived as a threat, when I'm just supporting a mother's educated decisions. I've been accused of just about everything except murder.

http://midwiferytoday...

This article is a good to know, all encompassing road map for navigating through your decisions about birth. Marsden makes it clear that if you say you're looking for an empowering birth and your HCP gives you a condesending glare, it's time to move on. So BIG FAT HAIRY DEAL if one of Rene's clients decides to switch from C Section capital of the world to BRG. Marsden covers that in the first 5 paragraphs.

Sandy, I appreciate you finally admitting that something negative might happen in a hospital setting. Listen, things happen at home births, too, I've attended in both settings. But it's important for MY clients to be fully educated BEFORE they go into labor. And I don't mean at ANDREA University. I don't really know anything, honestly, I just give websites, articles, books.

Most of the women who hire me are already educated, are already planning on AMA-ing everything, and are reluctant to even BE in a hospital. I think it such a sad state that immediately HCP's ASS_U_ME that I told these women what to put on their plan. Can't women think for themselves? Since when is education so threatening?

Clients need to be prepared for whatever might come up during labour, any good CBE tries to cover all their bases. It's unfortunate for mothers that they have to use a certain "tone" when making a request during a $5000 procedure that they're paying for in order for that request to be honored.

Marsden's last section in the article, please read it, talks about bringing a hand held video camera into the birthing room with you; so you'll have documented memories of everything you experienced. He also instructs women to tape record all of the conversations that they have with their HCP's if they're questioning why something happened in labour the way it did.... Why? So women can can sue for breach of contract, emotional damage, etc?!??!!!

This isn't very nice of him, I would say. He should be reassuring the mothers, countless ten of thousands who have PTSD from BIRTH TRAUMA, telling them that the system is slow to change and we need to work within the boundaries we have been given.

Which leads to this, I'd rather poke my eye out with a stick, I'd rather have a CSection, than to navigate through the political firey hoops in the birthing arena in BR. I don't understand it, I don't like it, and I don't want politics on my resume.